Kelly Davis, People Director @ Sessions – Succession scaffolding and the Gen Z step up

Transcript of Kelly Davis, People Director @ Sessions – Succession scaffolding and the Gen Z step up

David JoshuaWelcome to Succession, how to build a bench of leaders ready to step up. I'm David Joshua, and I invite you to picture a graduate a year into their first real job being handed a team of their own. 18 months ago, they were at university, and now they're running one-to-ones at one of the fastest growing tech firms in the UK. At my next guest company, that isn't unusual, it's actually how the business grows. Sessions was founded in 2020 by a former managing director of Delivery to help founder-led food brands grow international franchises. It's one of Britain's fastest growing tech companies. It doubled its headcount over the last 18 months, expects to do the same again over the same period, and has just opened an office in Paris. My guest leads its people. She designs and runs the management and leadership programs herself, and she's helped build a culture. Based on giving each other feedback early and often. Kelly Davis, people director at Sessions, welcome.

Kelly DavisThank you so much for having me, David.

David JoshuaFantastic. So why don't we get right into it? Would you care to tell me about someone at sessions who got a team like that early into their career?

Kelly DavisYes, definitely. I as you said, it it's not rare for us that that kind of situation happens quite often. I think there's definitely one particular individual I I love to talk about regarding her kind of career so far here at sessions and and how well it's done. I won't name her 'cause she'll be very embarrassed should she come across this. But she like many within sessions, had very kind of it had done impressive things in her life even before she'd graduated university. So whether that be academically, whether that be part time jobs she'd had as as part of a very, very early career, or volunteering and such, a very high potential candidate when she joined our graduate programme. a good few years ago now. It's actually one of our our first graduate programs that we launched that she was a part of. and as happens a lot in agile start up businesses, the programme was meant to last about ten months and about five months into her program, We desperately needed some trusted resource in one particular department. So had to say, I know you're still doing rotating around the departments, but we really need you over here. We think you'd be really strong. since then she became an expert in her in that particular field, and it really wasn't long before we said, you know, you've done a fantastic job, we need to expand the department, that means you'll you'll be stepping up to management. which I'm sure probably was quite daunting to her, less than a year after graduating university. but she absolutely just ha smashed it. and I'm very happy to say that two and a bit years on, she's not only managing, she's now heading up a whole department. She manages managers. and she does a very competent job of it. More than competent, I am very happy to say a high performer and no doubt a director of the future here. So when I talk to people about people that have come in, been high potential, we can't take credit for that, but have seen success within the company, she she definitely springs to my mind.

David JoshuaThat's fascinating. What made you know that she was ready for such a big remit at such an early stage in her career?

Kelly Davisgreat question. we do rely on kind of tools and what I call scaffolding here at sessions. So when you have different tools at your disposal that you put into place that help you build cultures, you can really lean on them at times where you're you're making kind of a decision that is it the right one, is it the right time? Because obviously timing is Is everything when we're talking about promotions and developing people. One thing that we are really big on here at sessions is our competency framework. So we have 10 competencies based on five values that we've determined are extremely important for success here at sessions, and then different expectations of each of those competencies depending on the level and the hierarchies that someone is. So when we are considering someone for a step up, very much look at where are they in terms of their competencies and expectations today. Are they already stepping into the next band in terms of how they're doing for this? Perhaps not, and perhaps that's fine, but are they very capable of stepping into that next band of expectations without it being too much on them? whether that be mentally or or physically workload wise, and what succession planning are we do we have if they are stepping up into this next role and what that means to the role that they've been doing. I'm very pleased when we ran these type of exercises with the person in question. it was very clear that she was very ready for that step up and probably could have been for a while, but we needed to have her self-confidence and belief. that she was this expert, she was the the person to take this department where it needed to go and so yeah, again all about timing, but was the right time I think when we stepped up. As much as I'm sure if we we had her on, she would say it was a scary time, but she was very ready.

David JoshuaAnd that brings me on to the next question. I know you do a lot of the leadership development yourself at sessions. What is it that you do to prepare leaders like that for what's next?

Kelly DavisYeah, so we obvious we do have different management and leadership courses that we run, as you mentioned. they're kind of split into modules, and we always start with setting yourself up for success. So we run courses that teach various different individuals in our in in our teams. in fact at everybody does at least two of these courses. on how to understand themselves, mainly in the workplace. we do run MBTI, if anyone's familiar with that, the Myers-Briggs kind of assessment with all of our employees, very basics of understanding who they are and how they interact with others, and then build on from that things like accountability. How we I run a course on making yourself redundant, which sounds very scary. We don't mean exiting people

David JoshuaMm-hmm.

Kelly Davisfrom the business. I'm very pleased to say, unlike many startups, we've we've not had to do much of that at all. but more about how you step yourself up by elevating your role, your department, your purpose. and also we do a lot of work on psychological safety. So this feeling that they are. Comfortable and know they will not be told off or exploring how to make something better, faster, cheaper, more agile, better custom service, whatever it might be. That all needs ideas, experimentations. Not all of them will work, but that's fine. Fail fast. And where it does work, that's where you're really kind of yeah, smashing what we require and see as success here at sessions. So these courses tend to always start with that. setting yourself up for success, understanding yourself, understanding the environment that you work in, what's what's allowed, which seems silly, but you know, what what do they have permission to go off and do? and then of course we we move through the modules from that. So everything from from how you manage people, how you monitor performance, how you treat people, you might need to treat people differently and and when you don't, the the different ideas behind leadership, what What type of leader do you want to be? again, going back to kind of what I said earlier, giving them the scaffolding for what all of this looks like, different tools to use, different times throughout the year that they'll have to do different assessments or whatever it might need to be. but allowing them to individualise it and put their own stamp on whatever it is that we're trying to grow them within and knowing that. Especially Gen Z, for example, may do things very differently to to someone who's in the workplace longer.

David JoshuaThat's incredible. And and there's two things I want to explore among what you said. So my understanding is you've designed as well as delivering this kind of culture code framework that in initiates people into sessions culture as a startup where you want to grow quickly and move fast. Is that right?

Kelly DavisYeah, absolutely. Yep. need to s set that groundwork from day one, make sure it's not scary, make sure people know that they're a part of it, not just being expected to do things, but and yeah, doing everything we can to get them in the right mindset for what will look like success here. And of course it doesn't always work. Some people might go, that's you know, that's not how I like to w to work, and that's fine. Not everyone will will will be the perfect match for. But for those who we do get it right at recruitment stage and we we do assess various things and they come on board, that's the culture they're looking for and and that's what we set up from day one.

David Joshuabecause it's quite rare that people set p talent up for success. And often cultures will reject talent just like bodies will reject donor organs. Because they don't understand what's required of them. So I love that you have this framework for creating culture. Do you think that helps when you come to promote people internally? And do you see a difference to the s time it takes for people get to get up to speed from an internal promotion to an external one?

Kelly DavisYeah, absolutely. I think i we have so much on culture, I think it's a bit daunting when people first start. We we use Notion as an intranet. We have something called the the Sessions Culture Pack and it's got a huge amount of research, everything from a a culture document to the competency frameworks to information about to values to how to set yourself up for success, what tools are at your disposal. and when people start might w one of my biggest worries is, my gosh, that must be so, you know, daunting. So we we try and do our best to pull out kind of the main bits we think are important for them and and go through those in person versus just read these many, many web pages. and by doing that, we do pe see people, you know, get up to speed without culture, even if they've come from completely different cultures previously, faster than if we would just let them learn our culture on their own in the next three months, for example. one thing we do see a lot is people that may come from very, very corporate, large company, very set up backgrounds, really interested in joining a a faster paced startup, you know, when you speak to them of recruitment. and there being this understanding that do they really understand what the big differences with with the culture and the pace and such will be? obviously part of our talent team's job to to make sure we ask the right questions to recruitment and then very much the the culture piece when they join of how do we set those expectations from day one and and show where they're allowed to be different. and I think it does get them up to speed a lot quicker. but I suppose the counteract is is not overwhelming them. And some things where they will just have to learn for themselves and and will be more department specific, for example. But it does it when you get settled into the culture quicker, you can focus on actually becoming an expert in your role and and that can ultimately only end in, you know, promotions and more responsibility and and moving up in your career faster than if you had to learn it yourself.

David JoshuaI've I've worked at many good big brand names across my career in financial services and never did I have anything like that at my disposal. I as you as you just said, I have to I had to learn it all on my own and there were the kind of implicit and explicit culture, which I think also comes as company scale, but it's interesting that you're taking such pains to set the foundations and I really, really love that. And what I'd like to talk about is it's it's a young workforce predominantly. And one of the things that fascinates me when we're talking about succession is this next generation and we can call them Gen Z broadly. How are you finding hiring, managing, promoting Gen Z?

Kelly DavisYeah, absolutely. Well, firstly I end up feeling like everyone's mum at the ripe old age of

David JoshuaHa ha ha.

Kelly Davisthirty-five. but jokes aside, it's actually been really lovely. I've really enjoyed working with this kind of generation throughout this kind of time in our career. Obviously when I first started at Session, we were, you know, it's I've been here nearly five years now, so it was very much COVID type time. We were taking on graduates that had gone through university completely remotely and perhaps didn't have some of the kind of softer skills that we learned through, you know, that time in our education or part-time jobs we had while we were studying or such. They'd been you know, in their parents' attic that'd been turned into an office and and learning skills from over a screen. So that was a f a few years ago a big focus on our learning development was how do we how do we give those skills to people that perhaps missed that period of time in their early careers. Very happy to say obviously we're we're at the other end of that. So when we're taking on graduates now, it's it's less so. something we nearly need to think about. I do get, you know, sometimes I see articles you know, follow a lot of kind of development pages and such, or I see discussions that Gen Z people aren't ambitious or they're not wanting to step up in the workplace. And it it's just really not what I found at all here at sessions. I think stepping up looks very differently. sorry, but it looks very different to to perhaps what we it did 10-15 years ago. And I think the big difference is where we used to have a job description of what somebody in this job Did and the next job looks like this, and this is that job description, and and that's that one, and it was very fit that. what I've really enjoyed with working with Gen Z is actually let's completely rip up that job description. They're ready to move on to the next stage of their career, they're ready to take on more responsibility. What are they strong at? What do they enjoy? Where are their strengths? What are they not so good at? how do we develop a new role specifically for them that solves obviously a problem that the the company need you know I'm not saying any old job they they wish to have of course it needs to solve a a company problem putting the right people and developing the role to so suit those skills and perhaps where they're not so strong, either having a development plan or or hiring for someone that would be strong in that area instead and and balancing that out. so basically Stepping back from what a, you know, a hierarchy plan looks like and saying in three years' time, these are all the people, this is going to be their job title, these will be their responsibilities, and organic, kind of naturally building your organization off the back of your high performers, your high potentials, of course, and adapting with them. And I don't think before my role here at Sessions, I'd I'd ever had that. kind of strategy for succession planning. It's we're gonna need a manager in X amount of months. How do we get someone to be the exact manager that might have left or stepped up? And it's now more complicated certainly, but but suits this generation much better. And personally for me as a, you know, a professional development professional, I absolutely love it. It's it's so much more fun than trying to put a, you know, any old peg in any old square hole or whatever the saying might be. it's really knowing the strengths of an individual and developing them along their own path that might might be linear, it might be internal promotion, it might be a path we never envis envisaged 18 months ago. But that I think that's been the main difference I've found with Gen Z. And then when you give them those opportunities, the they are a much more ambitious generation than I I think our generation were, but the right people, the right mindset, the right people for your company at the right time and then developing them at the right time in the right places.

David JoshuaAnd and I love what you're talking about there in that this movement towards developing pools of talent for families of roles focused on future competencies rather than specific people for specific roles because we just don't know what roles are going to be emerging redundant in 18 months' time, right? And so this idea of developing

Kelly DavisYeah, one hundred percent.

David Joshuatalent is is central, I think, to succession.

Kelly DavisAbsolutely, absolutely. And it's funny because obviously succession planning is all about having a really detailed plan and making sure you know that plan and and having it far off in advance. And I suppose what I've just said is slightly the opposite of that. it doesn't mean the overarching succession plan needs to change, but just exactly how we get to where we need to be, is a bit more bespoke. so yeah.

David JoshuaYeah, I I was writing I'm writing a book on succession and this morning I got to the bit that you're talking about where agility and adaptability are actually far more highly prized now than a lot of these fixed competencies that AI is starting to take over. So I think you're absolutely on the right track. I do want to just come back to Gen Z because two of the biggest challenges I encounter when I do work with companies such as yours is number one, this idea of boundaries. and this

Kelly DavisMm.

David Joshuaidea of entitlement and this idea of psychological safety perhaps being weaponized. Now I know your culture is founded on feedback and psychological safety. What's your experience been in terms of Gen Z and some of those competencies I've discussed?

Kelly DavisYeah, so feedback is so important. it we do find that when people are joining our workforce and they are kind of Gen Z or straight out of university or haven't been in the workplace long, our feedback can be quite a shock to people. but not even just Gen Z. Sometimes people that have joined from really large, not very feedback led kind of organizations and then they come here and they get 360 peer feedback straight off, you know, when we're planning the probation meetings and and we give it naturally through the week. And we we do train in the the one minute manager you know immediate feedback as soon as it's available and such. So people can be a bit overwhelmed by our feedback at first, but then when we have kind of our engagement surveys and exit interviews and various other ways that we collect data from employees, There is over there's always an overarching theme that people actually really appreciate feedback, constructive criticism, and they feel that's a big part of why they've developed as individuals, that they have been given this feedback. Obviously, we have to do a lot of training on making sure feedback is given in the right way, you know, no public outcries of, hey, you, you've done this thing wrong in the middle of the office. Very happy to say I've never heard any raised voices or shoutings or arguments within sessions. So obviously making sure feedback's given in the right way. But yeah, out of all of the the words you said there, I think for us the the one that most touched me is what you said about feedback 'cause it's so important to do it right but and then develop it as part of your culture. So people still, you know, performance review season comes around, they're like, I've got to give them some, you know, some difficult feedback and we give coaching on that. both in generic training courses and more one to one with the person who might need some support from someone like myself. But it it doesn't mean it's ever gonna be perfect, but it is really important to develop for both the person and the the the the business.

David JoshuaAnd I think maybe what I'm hearing and I don't want to put words into your mouth is but the Gen Z are a lot more conscious of the right way of doing things and they have less tolerance for practices that aren't best in class. And so when we give them feedback in the right way, they're responsive, but perhaps some of the criticisms Gen Z have around the workplace as previous generations have created it is that it isn't designed for their growth and it isn't designed to deliver candor with kindness, shall we say. What do you think about that?

Kelly DavisYes. One hundred percent. I think there is definitely a what is in this for me more so in Gen Z than other generations. And I suppose people can see that as a bit negative. God, you know, we're trying to build a business here and you know, w shouldn't they be part of the team and, you know, in it for the mission? and I don't think that that what's in it for me means that they're not all of those things, but they wanna see them alongside, right? What w what development am I gonna see by taking on these more responsibilities? Am I gonna be sent on a training course? will I be developing in some way or am I gonna be doing the same old thing? you do I think Gen Z, you there there is more of a what's in it for me mentality. I I do think immediately, you know, the millennials and plus go, gosh, you know, that's just not how we're used to doing things. But they can work really nicely alongside each other. and they definitely, as you say, come in with more of expectation of what good, what great looks like, you know, whether it's something small like a a work social, all the way up to, you know, how they want to be managed or what they wanna see the leaders of the business exhibit in in whether transparency, for example. which is another thing I've massively seen in in Gen Z. They really care about transparency, whether that's, exactly how well the company's doing or what is the long term plan, or we've made this change exactly why we have we changed it. I think I can definitely think when I was twenty one, I you know, I got given an instruction, did I care why I was doing it, or what the long term plan is, or what the l you know, which leader this come from. I d I don't think I probably would have cared back then. So that definitely is a switch of that generation. I think that wanting as much transparency, that why am I doing this? So and I think it stems from the same thing. They want to know so they can see why am I a part of this, what is what I'm doing, laddering up to the overall mission, the overall value here of what we're trying to do. And ultimately if we get all of those things right, people will give 110% way more than if they if they didn't have all of that. So Apologies, I've probably gone off off a tangent from the the question there, but it suddenly made me think of how important transparency and and Gen Z is that I've personally found.

David JoshuaReally lo I really love that focus on transparency. And as a coach and as a culture advisor, there is very there are very few times when transparency isn't the best option. There's a guy called Ray

Kelly DavisMm-hmm.

David JoshuaDalio who built the the most successful, biggest hedge fund in the world, which is a lot of sensitive proprietary information. And his he thought the cost of corporate espionage was lower than the the the the the the opportunity cost of being transparent and so he publishes all of the data and all of the conversations anything that isn't HR confidential and has had tremendous success so I love that what what came to me as you were saying this is that Gen Z are here to help us have better standards. They just don't they don't tolerate it. Yeah yeah

Kelly DavisYeah, yes. That's not a bad thing, right? We we should. Yeah, absolutely. Have have higher standards and and actively ha to think about these things. And it is funny 'cause we'll be planning an all hands where we're representing s you know, we're gonna launch something that we're doing as a company or something like that. And, you know, it is on us all to go are we being transparent enough? Or do we need to step back a bit and go, Okay, where did this come from? Why are we doing this? and And hold ourselves to account for those things as well. Because sometimes in doing that, as we're preparing communications, we're like, hang on, is that XYZ? and can be really helpful as well. So yeah, I've seen that happen a few times.

David JoshuaBeautiful, thank you. Okay. So I I just want to ask you a couple more questions. I think something that fascinates me is I know that you are responsible for the people function and you guys are growing and scaling, and you have limited time, no doubt very effective. But one of the things in your role is starting to get managers and leaders to own their own succession planning instead of leaving it to HR, to you. How do you do that?

Kelly Davis100%. I I mean I'm not sure if I have the perfect answer to this. And if anyone out there does, I would l absolutely love if they think they've completely got this down, I would love to hear it because I think that's what all HR leaders talk about, right? Is like we we really care about this stuff and we know that the managers or department leads care about it as well. How do we get them to build it into their day-to-days versus it be a forced thing they have to do every six months, like performance review season, for example. and I'm gonna use the wording again just because I really believe in it, but I it's scaffolding is what comes to mind, is that we can train you why something's important, we can give you the tools and the different times of years where you'll need to do these exercises, whether it be probation, performance reviews, nine box grids, which are a big thing here at sessions, different areas where I'm gonna say, hey, I need you to stop doing your standard day-to-day. And think about these things, and then I'm going to help you with how you think about those. Obviously, that's a lot on me, but the plan long term is if I take away that scaffolding and I take away those reminders and those times throughout the year where they have to sit down and think about X, Y, Z. Eventually, when they get used to those things, even when it's not the right time of year, and I haven't given them three warnings and a countdown of when they need to do it for. They should naturally just start to have these conversations in their mind with the tools and the training they've had from our department. And I have seen that where I every two months I'll sit down with our heads of department and just say, just tell me about just tell me about your team, you know, who's doing well, who might need a bit more help. And sometimes they after a few of these, they come to me and they said, Well, I did a little spider graph exercise of the skills in my team, and what I realise we're really lacking is X. So as we're recruiting next month, and and it it really does make me smile because I think, I haven't mentioned a spider graph of traits to you for a a year, and you've at a time where it's important, have gone and done it without any reminders from me. You've used that scaffolding, that tool that I've put on our intranet for the managers. you've done that yourself, and then you've come to me to tell me that you've done it, and it just shows that. with the training, with the tools available to them, making sure it's e all in an appropriate place and then reminders, naturally eventually we should be able to take all of those things away and they should just do it themselves. so I'm not really answering the question there because I know there's a lot of I do this, I do that. but I am really starting to see some of our best and brightest use these tools or this thinking or these ways of working that I've mentioned to them maybe years ago in a management training course for themselves. So I I think it all starts with put the scaffold in place and then hope when it comes down you've still got beautiful building that doesn't fall down. So that's

David JoshuaI

Kelly Davisthat's why I love scaffolding.

David JoshuaI I I la I I really love what you're talking about here because I think begin with the end in mind is obviously a principle of of life in that what we have an intention and that's going to create reality if we're lucky. And I think the intention certainly of larger larger organizations when it comes to succession planning is this is something we're obliged to do for the board and for the regulator. And it's ultimately a piece of paper we create. And what I'm hearing is you are the intention is to build leaders. How can I help you? And enough Enough reinforcement and also making it a habit once every couple of months, not once every year. And then eventually people say, Well, now

Kelly DavisOne interesting.

David JoshuaI need a leader. Could you go hire me one of these for my succession planning? And that's actually the penultimate question I want to ask you. I understand that what you're saying is hiring more for the team than the individual now. And this concept

Kelly DavisYes.

David Joshuafascinates me. Could you just talk about where your head is at in terms of succession planning for a team rather than what we've been talking about so far, which is the individual?

Kelly DavisYeah, absolutely. And I think this has been really big at Sessions as well, 'cause Sessions is only what, six years old. So we're still a baby in the grand scheme of things. And for many years, especially when I came on board and we were twenty people or something in those days. It was always about the individual. How are they performing? What is their potential? you know, the the whole conversation was about the individual. Now we have very large departments, we have managers managing other managers, we have, you know, we always try and make it so nobody manages too many people. So, you know, these hierarchy trees and we used to say we we love a flat hierarchy and you do just get to a point where the mentality of a flat hierarchy can still exist in your culture, but ultimately it doesn't it doesn't work. Long term in terms of pastoral and performance support that people need. So if you know that everything is more about assessing how strong in performance the department is, of course, you need to move from the individual assessing the individual into how well is that team doing. And we actually start we start with leadership when we do this at sessions. We have a leadership trip we we take once a year and we assess the strength of our leadership team in various different ways, and then we we have actions to combat. that. and then obviously it should filter down and and and guidance be there. I think succession isn't about one person. We we know that. Of course in their minds it is you know they're they're worried mostly about their own succession, especially if they're more junior. But y when you look at the team you you start to ask different questions. You know, what's our Is there a point of failure, if so, what that is? Who's ready? Who's ready in a year? Who's ready in two years? do we have the right mix of skills? Have we accidentally recruited for similarity bias and everyone's the same and everyone has the same skills and the same weaknesses? is are all of those visible? Are people aware of them? you know, what what's fragile within the team? Does this one person hold all of the knowledge of X? And if we take that person out of the team, do we lose a significant amount of knowledge? And if so, what are we doing to to strengthen the rest of the team in that area? And you can only think about these things that might go wrong, you know, the the black hat thinking, which apparently I'm very good at, where all of these things that could go wrong. if you start by thinking about them and then going, okay, now we're looking at the team, how do we prevent these things from going wrong? you know, different skill sets, different people holding different knowledge. And ultimately to prevent those things going wrong, it's not assessing one person and if they're strong enough or not. It's assessing the whole team and and if they're strong if one person steps away. If you have your absolute key person that drives the team and is the star in that team. what happens if they they leave or transfer to another department. so you have to start looking at the overall team versus the individual. And I think that's been a big shift for us in the last year actually, as we've as we've grown, as teams have got bigger and if we've also for for myself, you know, I I used to quite easily catch up with every single manager on a weekly basis. I I can't do that anymore. So how are we making sure that everything is filtering down and ultimately it all leads back to continuing with the culture that we know has made us successful.

David JoshuaIt's really fascinating and I want to keep you longer, Kelly, but I know you've got a full day ahead of you. So thank you for your insights. What I would love is if you could share just one piece of wisdom or advice with the audience about succession, what would it be?

Kelly DavisYeah. I think we kind of p mentioned this earlier, but I think timing is everything. You could have a high potential employee that is going to be an absolute star one day, but if it's not the right time, leave them for now. Have a a a plan B and don't promote up too early because I've I've seen people take on take on things before they're ready and it it ultimately not be great for them and not be great for the business. So I'd say timing is everything and there's a as a second thing I suppose I'll leave everyone with is really take into account what people are strong at, what people are not strong at. Build a plan around that, when looking individually, of course. no round pegs and square holes or whatever. I'm sure I'm getting that saying wrong, but you really where can we adapt, where can we bespoke, where it's for the good of the company and the individual. People will thrive much more in positions they're they're meant to be in versus they've been forced into.

David JoshuaBrilliant, brilliant. I agree with all of that and I've taken a lot of notes from our conversation. I've learned a lot. Before we go, where can people go to find out more about the amazing work Sessions is doing?

Kelly DavisYeah, so definitely f please follow us on LinkedIn. We're actually my colleague is about to start a a big piece of work in making our LinkedIn a lot better. So she'd really appreciate me giving a a shout out to to help her her KPIs on on new followers. we're also gonna start hearing from our leaders more as well. So follow our leaders, you know, Dan Warren, Jack Anderson, fantastic individuals who will be kind of sharing. And our our website of course is can't forget about these basic things as well. we actually post some really interesting things on there as well. So, yeah, hopefully you can find more from there.

David JoshuaI'm I'm certainly following your journey and I I can testify Dan Warren, incredible guy, used to be the managing director of UK Delivery during its epic growth phase. So very much worth a follow. As are you, Kelly Davis, and I thank you so much for your time, your insight, and your wisdom, and I appreciate you.

Kelly DavisTh thanks so much. Thank you very much for having me. Have good week.

David JoshuaYou too. Goodbye.